Creating High Performing Teams | Sandy Mamoli

51

---

In this conversation, Sandy Mamoli discusses creating high performing teams and their characteristics.

Sandy Mamoli is a former professional athlete and Olympian from Austria, who transitioned to a career in Natural Language Processing, eventually joining Sony Ericsson in technical roles. Relocating to New Zealand in 2007, she co-founded Nomad8 and became a renowned Agile Coach, working with companies worldwide on agile methodologies, high-performance teams, and business agility. A keynote speaker at major global conferences, Sandy is also the co-author of “Creating Great Teams,” focusing on high-performing Agile teams and self-selection.

Takeaways

• Agile teams are defined by a shared goal and purpose, dependency on each other, and a shared history.
• A team’s mindset, including beliefs such as sensing and responding, collecting feedback, and adapting, is crucial for agility.
• Measuring team performance is difficult and context-dependent; comparing teams for inspiration and learning is more effective.
• Designing teams should involve self-selection and giving teams time to learn and become high-performing.
• Challenges in implementing agile practices can be overcome by focusing on fun, ownership, and continuous learning.
• Organizations and leadership should have open conversations with teams, listen to their perspectives, and understand their challenges.

Connect with Sandy

• Website: https://nomad8.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandymamoli/
• X: https://twitter.com/smamol 

Connect with Vit

• Website: https://vitlyoshin.com/ 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vit-lyoshin/ 
• X: https://twitter.com/vitlyoshin 
• Other: https://linktr.ee/vitlyoshin 

Timestamps

(00:00) Intro

(05:18) Definition of an Agile Team

(09:23) Measuring Team Performance vs Individual Performance

(11:41) Identifying Poor Performance and Behaviors on Agile Team

(15:16) How to Measure an Agile Team Performance

(19:53) How to Measure the Individual Performance of a Team Member

(21:26) How to Compare Agile Teams

(24:02) Steps to Design a New Agile Team

(27:13) Prerequisites to Forming a New Agile Team

(28:49) Team’s Perspectives on Agility

(30:51) Identify and Fix Bad Agile Practices and Behaviors

(37:30) Advice for Team

(38:14) Advice for Leadership

Transcript (Edited by Vit Lyoshin for better readability)

Vit Lyoshin (00:04.542)

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Vit Lyoshin Podcast. Today we have a new guest, Sandy Mamoli, Agile consultant, speaker, author, and board member of Agile Alliance.

Welcome, Sandy.

Sandy Mamoli (00:23.556)

Thank you. Hello.

Vit Lyoshin (00:26.762)

I invited you to talk about agile teams. A few things I would like to cover are what agile teams are, how to measure performance, and what’s the difference between individual and team performance measurements, and also best practices for the designing of a team. And maybe we’ll get to some ideas or questions agile teams may have for us, for you as a consultant or as a trainer. That would be nice to cover.

Before we jump in, if you would like to tell about your journey a little bit and how you became an agile consultant and coach, anything from your experience.

Sandy Mamoli (01:20.552)

Excellent, thank you. Like everyone else, I love talking about myself, so stop me if I go on for too long. I want to start with my very first career, which was in professional sports, that is relevant because it was a team sport, and that’s where I’ve learned a lot about how to work with teams, what it feels like to be on a great team, and about individual versus team performance.

And like most athletes, when you get older at some point, there was the idea of probably need to grow up. And so at the age of about 25, I went to uni. I studied natural language processing, which is a subfield of artificial intelligence, which is really hot right now. But at the time, it was something that I believed would never even work, or at least 20 years way too far in the future for me to not have a career shift.

So after uni I became a software developer. I worked with Sony Ericsson, I worked in digital marketing, I did a lot of CES admin and Oracle DBA stuff and then in 2007 moved to New Zealand and because I had worked agile in 2003 I thought it was completely normal. Everyone was doing this. How would anyone else work in any other way? I moved to New Zealand and realized I had been living in a bubble. Which was, and that’s not to say that New Zealand was behind at the time or anything like that. It was just me living in a bubble, having no idea that other people would not work in an agile way. 

And around that time, two things happened. One was I really did not want to work in any other way. So I thought I’ll just do this myself and I create my own world. And the other thing that happened was that I found out I’m probably an average developer, but I was pretty good at talking to people and convincing people. That’s how I started to get into coaching and building agile teams.

And yeah, I then started a company because I felt lonely doing this on my own and I wanted to have friends. So I started a company named Nomad 8. We are between 12 and 14 people and that’s what I’ve done ever since. That was about 15 years ago and I think that’s it.

Vit Lyoshin (04:04.83)

Thanks for sharing. And yeah, there is a lot of analogies between sports and software development I like to use as well with my teams. So yeah, that’s great. And I’m sure you have, you know, experience in both at this point.

Okay, so the first question is about how to define an agile team, and what they really are, and what their characteristics are.

Sandy Mamoli (04:37.848)

You just love starting with the easy stuff, eh? I always find those questions are the most difficult. How do you define an agile team? How do you even define agile? But I’ll give it a shot. And to give it a shot, I wanna pick as a part, like what is a team and what is an agile team? And then go into what makes a great agile team.

The reason why I think it’s so important to talk about what makes a team is because so often I just see groups or collections of people, they are just being thrown together and go, hey, you’re a team or believing they’re a team. Whereas, there’s an actual definition that it’s a group of people that have a shared goal and a shared purpose. They need to, and that needs to be strong enough for people to want to work together to achieve this together.

And there’s quite a lot in the achievement together too because none of the people on the team could achieve that goal by themselves. So they need to be dependent on each other. And they also need to have a shared history. Like if I put five people in a room with a shared goal, they’re still not a team because they need to learn how to become a team.

And that gets me to what would make this team, what would make them an agile team and I think that’s a, I bloody hate the word mindset because it’s so, it means nothing though but it’s a shared set of beliefs; beliefs like we sense and respond we have the courage to collect feedback and to adapt and adjust to that feedback and, basically all that really good agile stuff that we often used the word mindset and I still think that’s actually that covers it even though I’m kind of annoyed with that word because it’s become shallow.

I think that’s the third part of what makes them great, what makes a good team. And I think a good team is one where you can just see there is some magic. There is magic between the people. It’s not the individual people, but it’s the magic that happens when they collaborate. And that’s not necessarily people who need to like each other, but people who need to like working with each other. People who have clear expectations to each other, people who have behaviors that put the we above the I, and people who agree with people that over time work out and figure out how they best work together and improve over time. So I think in a nutshell that be my idea of a great Agile team.

Vit Lyoshin (07:39.342)

Yeah, I really like that, it takes time to build a team. You can’t just throw a bunch of people in the room and call it a team and have them work on something. Even though they are professionals, they have a ton of experience, they totally understand what needs to be done, it still takes time to get to know each other, to figure out communication, collaboration, and all that stuff. And that’s how it also happens in team sports, right? You can’t get six people, throw them to a hockey rink, and say, okay, go play hockey. No, they don’t know, they need to train, they need to get used to each other to see who’s doing what and things like that, and communicate with each other somehow. So that’s a very interesting thing that I found that you mentioned.

Everybody wants to have a high-performing agile team. But what would be the biggest differences between measuring performance for the team versus performance for the individual?

Sandy Mamoli (08:54.24)

Yes, that’s kind of the holy grail in soft development, and I think we’ve always struggled with that because it seems to be so hard and almost impossible, I wanna take this up a notch, a level of abstraction. And the first thing is they’re like, let’s just look at the team. Are they getting results? And what’s a good result or what’s not a good result we can talk about later, but are they getting the expected results? And are they improving over time? Great. And then within that, you got individual performance.

But I think that matters way less than we believe. And yes, if someone is not pulling their weight, that’s a problem. If you have five people and they’re all absolutely unskilled, that’s a problem too. But everyone’s performance is only important as far as that contributes to the team’s performance.

So just individual performance, I think, is irrelevant. And what I would measure is just the team part. Are we getting the results we want? And then individually, yes, I will make an assessment about myself, for example, or get a coach to assess me. Am I contributing? Do I have the skills? What skills do I need to improve to be able to contribute even more? But I wouldn’t. I hate the, like, hey, you aren’t producing that much. So this is your value on the team. We can’t actually tell that. I don’t know if any of that made a lot of sense, but I think it’s a difficult area, and I would just focus on the team.

Vit Lyoshin (10:41.228)

Yeah, it is. Calling individual performance and measuring everybody on the team is, I don’t think, is the right approach. But then the result also becomes a challenge that somebody who’s maybe not yet up to the level in the skills, or maybe lazy, or maybe they have something going on in their personal life and they just have this, you know, they can’t really think about work or whatever. Any case happens. Whose job is to identify these things, how can a coach or scrum master come in and motivate them?

Sandy Mamoli (11:33.605)

I think those are really important points you are making. I really like packing a question and I think two of those things are hugely different from each other. One is the skills and the other one is behaviors.

The skills, we can assess skills. We can, once you have a certain level, you can assess your own skills. I know where my gaps are. I know what I want to learn, I need to learn. If I’m completely junior, yes, I will need help. I will need help from a good manager, a good leader, or a coach to identify skill gaps and then learn and close those gaps. And we also have a conversation about like, should I learn this thing or this other thing? Which one is more important for the team? So what should I focus on first? And that’s normally not the problem.

And then you’ve got the behaviors. Where you say, yeah, what if someone’s like super lazy and doesn’t pull their weight and they don’t have the right attitudes? And that is a totally different problem. And it’s a big problem. On any team, a real team, your team members will call you out. They will have expectations of each other, we hold each other accountable. And then other people will see if you have that behavioral problem. Or is there anything that you just don’t have the skills?

If there’s a behavioral problem, we need to have a conversation within the team that, hey, you said you’re going to do this thing, but it’s the third day in a row that you’re not doing it. So are you stuck? Do you find it hard to have this conversation? What can we do? And I don’t think we necessarily need to have our late-night manager come in and talk about this because a good team will take care of themselves. I think that also means that teams, in the beginning, will need help because that’s nothing that just appears or that people will have in the very beginning. So I think a good team coach is incredibly valuable in the form of a coach or a scrum master or whatever role.

Vit Lyoshin (13:52.682)

I was just about to mention that this is where the retrospective and self-improvement comes in, where a team can bring up these things, mention it in a safe environment, right, between themselves, and figure it out and see if there is a pattern that somebody is underperforming for whatever reason. They can just say, like, hey, do you need help? What’s going on? If it’s a one-off, it’s okay. Maybe something happened. But if it’s a pattern, then there is a problem.

When it comes to actually measuring the performance of the whole team, let’s talk about that for a second. What are some of the best practices or maybe from your experience, what things should be people measuring when it comes to the teams performance?

Sandy Mamoli (14:43.032)

I’m going to go super controversial now. And I’m actually quite controversial about that because I think it is impossible to measure objectively. Like any of the things we have tried in software development, they don’t work. Like Story Point, really doesn’t work. Lines of codes, all this nonsense. It doesn’t, good ideas, but they don’t work.

So I think team performance and what you can expect of a team is dependent on the context. So I think we can’t really measure it. What we can talk about is expectations within the rest of the business. That needs to be an adult-to-adult conversation and not a difference in power. Where the business always says, every company ever wants everything faster, but have an adult conversation about expectations around what’s possible.

And then the other thing is that, and that’s the controversial part, I think comparing teams is a really good idea. And I want to again compare with sports if you’ve got a sport like team sport like football or handball or hockey. I can’t actually tell if this team is playing great or not. I do this by comparing. You just scored 20 goals. Might be great. Might not be great. But did you score more than the other team? And I think there’s something we can use also for agile teams. And I’m not talking about let’s beat the other teams, let’s win. I’m talking about comparing.

I look at a team, sports team or agile team, and I go, cool. This is a great team. Those are the things they’re doing. Those are the skills they have. The behaviors they have. The habits they have. And look at those things and they go, cool, we’re doing this, check, but wow, this is a great idea. We should get better in that area. And then take that as an inspiration and decide where do we want to be in six months. Learn from that and improve.

When I say compare, I don’t mean the shallow go on Instagram and I think, oh my God, we’re so bad, this shallow comparison, but the inspiration of going out and finding really good teams and learning from them.

What I’ve done in the past with other teams and what I think teams are not doing enough is take the time to go out either within your own organization and also totally outside and make friends with other teams and observe them and talk to them and see what they do that you’re not doing or vice versa. And for me that’s the best way of metering or observing performance while still having an idea and then hopefully a plan for how to improve.

Vit Lyoshin (18:00.93)

So it’s not about having specific measurements or indicators on their outcomes, if you will, but more about behaviors and how they do things, how they interact with each other or with stakeholders or with whoever, and then learning from that instead of measuring all kinds of things. Maybe measuring is still important, but not for that, for some other things.

Sandy Mamoli (18:25.26)

Yes, and I think the performance is a side effect that will come if we get all the other things right. Because I really can’t tell if you’re delivering that much, I can’t tell whether it’s good or not, you might be stuck on a mainframe with horrible technologies, spaghetti coat all over the place, and just a little increment might be an amazing performance for your team. It might not. It’s so context-dependent that I find it impossible to tell.

Vit Lyoshin (18:59.89)

That makes sense. When it comes to individuals, are there anything for individual performance measurements?

Sandy Mamoli (19:10.096)

I think yes. What I find, again, they’re not like universal, but there are measurements and there are two. One is the soft measurements or the quantitative measurements where you have someone observe and where you have the rest of the team see what’s going on, behaviors and so on. And then there’s the other part where I think a bit more objectively we can assess ourselves and figure out what are people that I think are really good, what behaviors are they modeling, what skills do they have, and then figure out what do I need to do in order to get there.

There’s an Australian company, that makes for juniors, I’m not sure if it’s for everyone or just for juniors, but they ask people in their development plan who do you want to be in two years. And then people figure out what character traits, behaviors, habits, skills, who do I want to be? Then they make a plan for how to get there. And I think that’s really awesome. And we can measure, like, are you on the right track towards your own plan? Sometimes the plan needs to change. I think that’s the best way of doing this.

Vit Lyoshin (20:52.608)

Okay, so you also mentioned a little bit about comparing teams. But how do we carefully compare them? Because now somebody may hear this and say, okay, now we need to compare everything that you guys do with these teams and make everybody equal or the same and then start measuring and punishing these guys and promoting those guys. How to do it carefully?

Sandy Mamoli (21:24.708)

Yeah, I think that’s a real danger and I’ve seen that happen and it’s basically treating adults asnon-adults, and a team as just factory workers and believing we can formalize so much that we can have this objective measure and then we can just compare the teams to each other and go, cool, you guys are not good enough.

We know it doesn’t work and sometimes we run into the boundaries of other people not understanding that this doesn’t work. It’s if the team explains it depends on the relationship but this already sounds like a broken relationship, so probably the team telling that you can’t do this is not going to work in this situation. So maybe a combination of that and having someone external who’s experienced and who has a track record to explain that. Because my experience is that people listen to people who are like them and if you can find someone who is like that person who wants to have this comparison and increase performance through that, have them talk to someone who has a different experience but is quite similar to that person in position in personality and everything.

Vit Lyoshin (22:51.058)

Yeah, I also like the idea of going to each other and seeing how it’s done. So maybe there’s also potential there to cross-train; maybe exchange a team member temporarily. And you know, and they pick up something, learn something, and then they try and it really elevates the performance. There are many tools that could be used like that and comparison is important. I agree with that as well.

But t’s a very sensitive topic.

Sandy Mamoli (23:23.44)

Absolutely and it’s highly controversial because it has been done so badly so many times before.

Vit Lyoshin (23:32.498)

Yeah. So let’s move on to the design of teams. What are the first steps to consider when trying to design a new team?

Sandy Mamoli (23:45.836)

I think what’s important is when forming a team, do those people have the potential to fulfill the purpose of this team? And that means having roughly the right skills and people who want to work on this team.

My absolutely favorite way of doing this is making sure that this is the case by asking people how would they design a team. And I believe this is the best way of doing it because the people who know best what makes a great, what could become a great team, what skills exactly are needed, what people work together well.

other people who are doing the actual work. So my favorite way of doing this is to just give people basically empty shells of teams, of we want those teams with those purposes, and then ask people, hey, you guys decide, we trust you to solve the problem, which is put yourself into the team.

and that you want to work in and two you believe will solve the problem for the entire company or department to fill those teams.

Vit Lyoshin (25:10.91)

Interesting, kind of like a self-organization exercise where they go and pick and choose where they think they can contribute the most and put it on themselves and just, you know, like shuffle through people and organize the teams that way. Yeah, that’s an interesting idea, that’s great. And I guess the next step would be there is just to give them time, maybe, I don’t know, a few months, a few sprints.

Sandy Mamoli (25:31.609)

Yeah.

Vit Lyoshin (25:38.982)

to just start doing something and go through the self-improvement process and iterate and really start performing well, right? Like it takes time a little bit.

Sandy Mamoli (25:51.04)

Yes, in whichever way the team is designed, you will need to give them time to learn how to be a team and become a high-performing team. That being said, I think the way to do the first step designing it, the best way is have people self-select into those teams. And that has been my experience over the last 10 years. This works really well if done right.

Vit Lyoshin (26:17.55)

Mm-hmm.

Sandy Mamoli (26:20.668)

And I’ve seen teams perform better when they were self-selected than not, probably because they got to work on something they wanted to work on, something that piqued their interests and also with people they want to work with.

Vit Lyoshin (26:40.178)

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I can see that. And then when the leadership or whoever is organizing or trying to organize these teams, are there any prerequisites or any information to give to them so they are able to self-organize the best in the best way, like descriptions for these teams, missions for these teams or anything like that?

Sandy Mamoli (27:06.54)

You mean before running a self-selection? Yeah. Yes, and the best one, you can’t do it without leadership. And the best ones are when leadership has bought in and they are convinced that we get the best results if people self-select. And if we can’t make it work, we can always go back to your plan and do it the old way. But…

Vit Lyoshin (27:09.342)

Right, right.

Sandy Mamoli (27:29.124)

To your question, yes, the purpose of which teams we need, the purpose of those teams, they’re usually set by leadership because they need to tie into the strategy. They shouldn’t just be really short term, but longer term, they’re tied to the strategy and to the goals a bit more into the future. And it’s basically leadership saying, those are the teams we need. Now, you tell us or help us figure out who goes where.

and make this whole puzzle work because we don’t just want to have one A team and five teams that are not working at all but we need to have this whole big picture solved of how do we get 10 teams that can all deliver to purpose.

Vit Lyoshin (28:15.822)

Mm-hmm, I see. Okay, that makes sense. So let’s talk about the teams themselves. And I’m very curious to see, since you worked with many teams, what are teams thinking about agility in general?

Sandy Mamoli (28:34.132)

Interesting question. There is two types of teams and let’s not beat around the bush. There’s so much shitty agile going on where people are being made to or where meetings are just added to the calendar. So we have all the alt meetings and now we have even more scrum meetings and everyone is forced to go to a stand-up, but they actually don’t know how it works. So it’s a status update.

all the abysmal stuff and it’s all about making managers happy and it feels shallow and it’s not helpful to the actual teams. That part people hate it and I absolutely understand that. What I wish is that they had seen or would see how it can be done well and this is one of the things that I am doing and want to do is show people that

It’s a good thing if you do it right. It’s absolutely amazing for the teams and the teams that are good agile teams, like using real agile, they absolutely love it because they have agency. They have a degree of autonomy. And, they get to choose how they work. How to solve their own problems. They get to decide what they want to improve. They get to buy into purpose and deliver to an outcome not being micromanaged.

So if you get it right, it’s amazing and people love it. If you get it wrong, and very often people do get it wrong because it’s simple but it’s not easy. If people do get it wrong, it’s really horrible. People hate it and I hate it too and I would hate to work that way too.

Vit Lyoshin (30:21.374)

Yeah. So are there anything to catch this and say and like identify, okay this team is doing Agile but they’re kind of in this shitty world of Agile versus another one is doing it right.

Sandy Mamoli (30:39.149)

I, as a coach, I can very often observe the quality of conversation. You get the idea of, do people just hate being here? Do they go, are they just going through the motions? So there are things that I can observe. And then there’s also conversations, like people will tell you. And they will.

you take them out for a coffee and you build a relationship and you then have this conversation and they will tell you how much they hate it and why they hate it and you go, yep, I agree so what are we going to do about that?

Vit Lyoshin (31:17.43)

Yes, so there is a lot of things can be done, I guess. It also depends on the teams themselves if they wanna improve or up to the leadership if they will allow certain things to be changed. It starts, I mean, it can start from the top of the organization all the way to individuals. And maybe even like reordering, not reordering, reorganizing the teams a little bit and moving people around can also help because I know for example that when I see something

starting going wrong on the team, it may be some one person starting doing something wrong or started behaving in a certain way that discourages everybody else. And if you just remove that one person everything becomes normal and everybody’s happy again. So anything can happen like that.

Sandy Mamoli (32:08.352)

Yes, yeah and that’s where I find there’s a really interesting difference often between the world of sports and work life because in sports you would start with having that conversation this frank honest conversation really direct this is what I need from you and people call each other out and people then either change behavior

Or if that happens all the time and the person doesn’t change behavior, they will not make the team, you get rid of them. So the toxic person is being expelled. And I think we could learn a lot from that in our work life. We give you feedback. We try to fix behavior. And yes, we need to agree. Like the team agrees about the correct or the good behavior is. But.

We get feedback, we see what changes. And if nothing changes and people don’t want to work with you on the team, you’re out. Go and do something else. That being said, I’ve also seen that, and I don’t know if you have seen that, but you’ve got this toxic person on one team with all the wrong behaviors and they’re a nightmare. They get kicked out, they are joining a different team, and all of a sudden it clicks.

in a slightly different team, in a slightly different role, and that’s all they needed.

Vit Lyoshin (33:32.986)

Yeah, I actually noticed that a couple of times when somebody either maybe wanted to be moved or just behaved the way that they are, somebody moves them and that’s how they actually get attention, right? By being a bad person a little bit. So they get attention of the leadership or managers and then the conversation happens.

Sandy Mamoli (33:56.044)

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes people don’t know what they want before they lose it. Like I had a business analyst on the team once and absolutely toxic, really bad for the team, and kicked them out. He then joined a different team which was still running some kind of water

Sandy Mamoli (34:24.368)

Three weeks later, he came back and said, wow, I thought I hated Agile so much, but now I remember the old ways and that’s way worse. Is there a chance that I can come back? And we had that, yeah, cool. You can come back. And he has been working Agile ever since and he loves it and he’s a great team player now. So sometimes it’s just the context switch and going, actually, this is the alternative or.

and people realize actually this is what I do want.

Vit Lyoshin (34:56.51)

Yeah, that’s a good example too. Yeah, you need to show them the bad side to appreciate the good. Another thing I think about good teams is that they can be really noisy, they can always get excited. They express their emotions more freely and more loudly, I should say, like really being noisy. And when the team is…

doesn’t perform well or maybe just getting to know each other. They’re usually quiet, they’re sitting in their own little spaces and they not always speak up and maybe like hiding behind somebody else and things like that. But when the team is already up to speed and everything they are really like noisy and going nuts a little bit. So just like in sports right you see the locker room and all these guys in the locker room they’re just jumping around and screaming and…

and whatever. There’s not a single team I’ve seen that in a break in the locker room they just sit still and don’t talk to each other. Never happens. So professional sports are all great teams and all great team members. So yeah.

Sandy Mamoli (36:08.088)

Very true. And in an agile team or any team at work, you can recognise it as you say, the noise and the banter and there is fun and people tease each other. It’s the ones that are not working that well, maybe just yet because they’re new, where as you say, they’re silent. And they also go through the, what I call the two-nice phase.

where everything’s okay and we are really nice and we’re really nice and polite and we’re just going to break through that so at some point we can have an honest conversation, a fun conversation but it’s a normal stage of team development.

Vit Lyoshin (36:49.25)

Yeah, yeah, I forgot whose diagram it is, but there are like four stages of development So it just depends also where they are On that on that stage. Yeah Okay Do you have any like advice or suggestion for teams themselves? Just how to become better how to do better

Sandy Mamoli (37:15.652)

I think it, like my advice is the working together as a team and getting results is fun. Make it fun, make it exciting, take ownership and choose the things that you want to learn and then learn them together and I think it’s the don’t forget to have fun and enjoy. And ultimately high performance is deeply satisfying so don’t forget that.

Vit Lyoshin (37:43.914)

Yeah, yeah. What about organizations and leadership? Any advice to them?

Sandy Mamoli (37:52.132)

Talk to your teams and actually that goes to that goes for both. Go to your teams and listen and understand their worlds and how they’re working and what motivates them and what the world looks from their perspective. And saying that, I actually have the same advice for teams, too, and especially for agile coaches, don’t just go up and tell everyone, but just have a conversation and ask questions and then.

shut the fuck up and listen to understand their world. Because very often I think as teams or our coaches, we don’t really understand the challenges that other people, leaders and managers are facing. So I think that goes both sides as a piece of advice.

Vit Lyoshin (38:41.738)

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Okay, all right. Well, thank you very much for your time today. That’s been an insightful conversation. I appreciate the knowledge that you shared. And yeah, I hope we’ll talk more in the future.

Sandy Mamoli (38:47.812)

Thank you.

Sandy Mamoli (38:57.348)

Yes, that would be great and thank you very much for having me.

Vit Lyoshin (39:01.39)

Sure, thank you. All right, talk to you later, bye bye.

Sandy Mamoli (39:04.88)

You’re welcome.